Dr. Ferriz joins host Frankie Tovar to share his expertise on topics including California's water sources and allocation, its jagged history of drought and precipitation and how Californians can better conserve and recycle their most precious resource.
Dr. Horacio Ferriz Bio: https://www.csustan.edu/people/horacio-ferriz
Geology Website: https://www.csustan.edu/geology
Produced by the Office of Strategic Communications and Marketing, edited and recorded in the KCSS studios on the campus of Stanislaus State.
Dr. Ferriz joins host Frankie Tovar to share his expertise on topics including California's water sources and allocation, its jagged history of drought and precipitation and how Californians can better conserve and recycle their most precious resource.
Dr. Horacio Ferriz Bio: https://www.csustan.edu/people/horacio-ferriz
Geology Website: https://www.csustan.edu/geology
Produced by the Office of Strategic Communications and Marketing, edited and recorded in the KCSS studios on the campus of Stanislaus State.
You're listening to the Stan State EduCast. I'm your host, Frankie Tovar. On this episode, we welcome Dr. Horacio Ferriz, professor of hydrology who leads the Applied Geology concentration here at Stan State. A certified geologic engineer in Mexico and the U.S, he has 20 years of professional geologic and environmental experience and has worked on projects throughout the world involving water supply, civil works design and environmental engineering, just to name a few. He also teaches six courses on campus, and he's the director of Water for the World. He's a bona fide water expert, and that's why he's here to talk about water in California. And we have a lot to talk about because water has long been a chief issue in California for a variety of reasons. Without further delay, let's welcome Dr. Ferriz. You're listening to the Stan Stat EduCast, produced on the campus of Stanislaus State. Thank you very much, Frankie. Thank you for that nice introduction. Before we get into the ever prescient topic of water in California, let's get some more background information on yourself. You're a certified geologist. Well, I am a professional geologist. So geology is a profession in which you need a license. Just like a doctor or a civil engineer. And then further, I am a certified geological engineer. So not only do I and advise clients in geologic issues, but I'm an engineer by training. So I solve problems for people. I don't get to choose the problem. Unfortunately, you choose the problem. I designed a solution. And how do you become a certified geologist? What kind of education did you have to go through? Well, you need to obtain a geology degree from an accredited university. Then there is a general knowledge exam that normally at least I advise my students to take right after they finish their degree while they are still fresh in their in their knowledge. Then you need to work for five years under the direction of a professional geologist. And then once that your mentor signs up on your time, then you can sit for the professional geologist examination. And so what universities or institutions did you attend? I got my engineering degree from the university of Mexico, UNAM, and then I did my Masters and PhD in applied Geology at Stanford University. Okay. And one more thing. In the intro. I mentioned you're the director of Water for the World. That's a program here at Stan State. Can you maybe expand and explain what that program is? Many years ago, 20 years ago, I had a visitor from Africa just walk through through my door, and he explained to me the problems that they were having in Ethiopia, providing water for some of their rural towns. Some parts of it are very dry and for agriculture. And he invited me to go to Ethiopia to advise him in that regard, which I did on several occasions. And I figured that this was a great opportunity to create a program that would help anyone who came from anywhere in the world to look for advice or knowledge on water issues. And my hope was that my students were going to do a lot of the work. I ended doing a lot of the work myself. It sounds like you're passionate about the work, though, so it sounds like maybe it's not that big of a deal for you to be doing the work. Oh, well, this is a funny story. When I was a student at the University of Mexico. The one class I didn't like was the geology of water. I thought, This is boring. You know, I like rocks. I like mountains. I don't like volcanoes. And it was not until I was in the workforce after Stanford that I realized that water is such an important resource. So I had to unlearn that dislike that I had for water. And I had to teach myself the good parts of water. And now I love it. I think it is probably the most important contribution that I have done professionally to society is preparing that new generation of hydrologists and practicing as a hydrologist myself. And you chose quite the state to reside in and teach in when it comes to water, because water in California is a top issue when it comes to supply, when it comes to managing its water rights. In your professional opinion, what is the most important aspect of the water issue in California? Well, you're correct. Water is the lifeline of California. We are fortunate that when California was colonized, the people that colonized it had a vision. And one of the things that became clear to them is that if this state was going to prosper, people had to have some security on water. And so we developed they developed the system of appropriation of rights, of water rights to assure people that if they invested in mining or in agriculture or in urban development, that they would have the water resources. But the water distribution in California is very irregular. You know, in the north, we have a lot of water. Not a lot of people. In the south, we have a lot of people and not a lot of water. And so I am just fascinated by the fact that California has had the gumption to build an infrastructure that is second to none in the world. The fact that we can move water from Northern California to Southern California, from east to west, from west to east, is a tribute to 100 years of vision by the the engineers, the water engineers of the state. Now, we're at the point in which we have security, but nature will still throw out moments to us like a lot of rain like this year or not enough rain like in the last two or three years. And then it has become more a management issue. There is enough water in the state, but it's not on all in one place. We need to learn to manage it. I'll jump right into the cause. For me to reach out to you. The recent rainfall, precipitation, rain and snow. It's one of the wettest years on record after the driest three year period in California. Is that correct? I don't know if it is the driest period in record because we have had some some pretty dry years. And of course, historically, we have had some tremendously wet years. But yes, you are correct in that this is one of the more of the wetter years that we have had, if not the most, and that the last three years were pretty dry and in drought. The the issue sometimes is not how deep the drought is, but how long it lasts. So even a modest drought that lasts for five years can cause tremendous amount of damage, more damage than a two year deep drought. Because we have some water storage, but if it extends over several years, then we've run out of the of the water. We have this year. We're blessed. We have lots of water now. We have too much of a good thing. And I think that's one of the things that you want to talk about. Yeah, I have a figure here. It says 78 trillion gallons of water, whether from rain or snow, hit the state this year. And that's already exponentially more than last year. And that caused a lot of people to kind of panic in the last few weeks, talking about snowmelt and flooding, some people referencing the floods of 96 and 97. Let's just get this out of the way. Are we in danger of flooding? Is this buzz cause for concern? I am not particularly concerned. However, I am not concerned because we have a lot of very good engineers and reservoir managers that are actively working their reservoirs to make sure that there's space to collect a lot of that water. Now, a week, a week, ten days ago, we had a warm spell and then we got worried because that snow started melting. And then nature gave us a reprieve because it sends us another week of cold weather. So that slowed things down. If you look at the rivers right now, the San Joaquin or the Wollemi, you notice that the the water is up to their noses, but not flooding. So the the reservoirs like dam Pedro mellowness and La grange are releasing as much water as they can safely release to make sure that they are creating the empty space water. There's no it's not going to melt all at once. So what I expect is going to happen is they're going to keep a close tab on how much water is coming in so that they can release almost as much without causing problems. Now, some of this reservoirs, all of them have flood control purposes, but the main purpose is irrigation. And you know that irrigators don't like to release water that they are not going to use. So in a in a certain way they are hurting right now. All that beautiful water is running out into the estuary. But it is necessary and they understand that. And so everybody is doing their share in terms of preparing for this release. It's kind of a little sad that we don't have more opportunities to store it. And that's a topic that that we need to have to discuss at length. For the time being, I would say no panic. Let's let the people that are managing the water flow do their job. Don't do anything silly. This is not a year to go canoeing in the water. Me or that or the Stanislaus. Just let the river do its thing and hopefully it will do it efficiently so that we don't have to deal with problems. With the concern kind of pushed to the side. Does that mean that 2023 is a saving grace for California? Are we coming out of the drought or is this just a continuation of the jagged line? Right. I'm glad that you mentioned the jagged line. If you look at precipitation over the years and we have records that go back to 1870, 1860 and the precipitation has gone sometimes very high, sometimes very low, sometimes a couple of years in a row of high precipitation and sometimes five years in a row, a very low precipitation. So it is a jagged line. Nobody can say what next year is going to be. But what we can say is that this year, indeed has been a saving moment because all the reservoirs are going to be full and there's a lot of water that is infiltrating into the groundwater basins. I wish we had more infiltrating here in Turlock. We have kind of a very good system in which a lot of our parks are basins. So the park is underneath. You see the the kids playing soccer way down there. All those all those holes have been used to collect water and the water has been infiltrating into the groundwater racing, which is a great place to store it. I wish we had more of that up in Sacramento, they have what is called the euro bypass is a low point in the river has been engineered that way so that when the river is high, the water flows into agricultural land and just sits in there. So if you take right now a drive from Sacramento to Davis, you're kind of running in a lagoon where the ditch like one came. This is this excess, a water and it's infiltrating and it's stirring. We like that. We need more structures like those in which we can recognize areas that we can spread water without causing any serious damage and letting it feed into the into the groundwater. One way or another, this year, our groundwater basin got a very welcome and a shot of excess water. How long will this excess water last? You're mentioning groundwater, but even just reservoirs and and lake to Larry is a is a topic of conversation it's it's huge. How long will this excess water last? How long will for instance lake to Larry be as large as it is now. Well, I suspect that lake to Larry is in a disappear during this summer once again. But that water is going to feed into the into the groundwater basin. And I'll measure in a moment groundwater. So we're saving grace and the reservoirs that we have in the states, we have several large reservoirs. They are probably going to be have enough that the next two years, even if it doesn't rain, we will have water for whatever we need. Now, of course, if it doesn't rain a lot, we need to be a little bit more parsimonious. Right now is the time to let water into the rivers. You know, we need to get rid of the excess. If if next year it doesn't rain as much, then we need to start being a little bit more careful with the use of water. But for the next couple of years, I don't think we're going to being in dire straits. If we last more than two years in a dry spell, then we're going to have to rely more and more on groundwater. Now, that's a little bit like losing your job and you have no more income, so you're going to live from your savings. That's that's fine. That's what savings are for. You want to live out of that water, but you cut down in the expenses, right? If you're not earning money, then you don't eat out so often. Maybe you don't buy yourself a new pair of expensive tennis shoes. Same thing with groundwater. If we're going to rely on our groundwater because our reservoirs are low, then we need to be more efficient. And I don't think that we need to to suffer, but we cannot be pretty handed with it. You know? How do we become more efficient? How do we take advantage of these wet years? A lot of people will hear a water is being released into the rivers, into the ocean, and they'll think about, you know, the history of drought in California and they look at it as a waste. How do we get to a point where we can further take advantage of these wet years? First of all, let me clarify one thing for those people that think, oh, this is a waste. Remember, the environment needs water. So this is one year in which we can give the environment as much water as it needs. The the ecosystems of the estuary are very happy right now, very grateful. And this is a good use of water. I think that this is a reminder that now and in nature is going to provide us a lot of water, which means we need to be ready to store it. Now, I know that some people don't like reservoirs because they interrupt the flow of rivers, but reservoirs are very efficient way of storing water. True, we have fresh water in some of the major streams, but for example, there is a reservoir site in the upper reaches of the American River, which is ready to receive a dam but has not been built because of opposition, opposition by other parties, whoever they are. Maybe it's time to revisit that opposition. The reason why that dam over the dam was proposed is because downstream from it we have Folsom Dam, which protects Sacramento. Folsom Dam is an elderly structure. It was built in the forties, and so it's getting 80 years old and it may not be up to snuff if there was an enormous volume of water coming, as it will this year. So we thought we needed another reservoir to help, but maybe this is a time to reconsider. I am not saying that we need to put a dam every every mile of a river. Right. But there are some cases in which it is a good idea to stop being a groundwater hydrologist. I, of course, always turn into water into the subsurface. That's a great place to store water. Nobody complains that they cannot river raft because groundwater is stored. It's free from evaporation. It's reasonable. We can protect it for from contamination. So I would like to see more structures like the ones we have here in Turlock. Bless our parks throughout the state, places where we can afford to create a depression, directs excess water there and let it infiltrate. It's not just making a hole in the ground. I mean, they have to be carefully engineered so that they don't bio foul. But we have plenty of space that we could do that. And wouldn't it be wonderful to have lots of little lakes that at least every three or four years get water? Maybe there's recreational opportunities there to be created? Absolutely. I grew up in Turlock, so I'm used to the basins and the aquifers. It's common for me. How uncommon is that in the whole state of California? Is Turlock unique in having that system in place? I think our Stanislaus County with Turlock and Modesto. Ripon well, Frimpong, if not in Stanislaus County, we are at the forefront of a lot of water technologies. There's not many places like Turlock where people have said, Hey, let's landscape our parks so that they can serve double duty. One of the reasons why we are such a forefront place is because of Modesto Irrigation District and Turlock Irrigation District. They're the oldest irrigation districts in California, and they have been well-managed. They belong to the farmers. The farmers have put the money and the effort to make them well-run organizations. They have a political structure. So the people that direct this organizations are farmers themselves or came from the farming community, but they know they need technical advice. So they have devoted the time and the money to create very strong technical support groups and they manage their own reservoir. Who else has a 2 million acre feet reservoir that belongs completely to them, tied and empty are just about the only ones in the state of California, and they know that the environment is important. So they manage their the reservoirs so that they maximize the benefits to the farmers, to the public in general for recreation, to the urban areas which potable water supply, at least MID, TID will soon be doing that and to flood control. They are top in the state. So next time you hear Stanislaus, don't say, Oh, what is that place? Stanislaus is just about the first county when it comes to water management, and that's why I always say we are CSU. Stanislaus. I'm proud of Stanislaus is a unique place in California. And that kind of leads into the issue of water rights. I've long heard that because TID is the oldest, or one of the oldest, irrigation districts in the state that Turlock has grandfathered rights and living in this area for a long time does have a better tasting water than some surrounding cities. Does this area, Turlock, have grandfathered water rights that other areas don't benefit from or experience? Yes, and I wouldn't call them grandfathered their senior water rights because they were acquired by the strict letter of the law. It just when the law was approved, TID and MID well, Waterford was first in line, TID was second line, MID was third in line. And right then and there, they applied for those rights. So they are not only the oldest water rights holders, the seniors, but they are completely legal, completely within the regulations of the state of California. Now, water for the irrigation district sold to Modesto Irrigation District. Remember, water for irrigation District was the first in line. So when they sold to MID, then MID became the first in line. I mean, this is a trivial issue. The fact is, yes, we have the oldest appropriators in the in the state of California in the form of our two irrigation districts. When when the nation was young and they they came from the east. In the east, there's lots of rivers. There's a lot of rain. Water was a common good. They said, hey, anyone that has frontage to the river has the same rate as anybody else. So it was more a location, right? But moving west where there was not that much water, the forefathers of the nation thought it well, not the forefathers when when they have in them in the 1800s thought we need to encourage immigration to the West. And the way to do it was to offer first come, first served. When it comes to water. You go west, young man, find the water you need and it will be protected as you're sure, right? And you will be the senior. And anybody that comes later will have to find we will have to either take what you are not using or find some other source of water. One restriction. The water has to be put to good use. You cannot waste it. And that's important because is the same idea went to it and it got the rights is the same rules. Your first year senior guaranteed. However the water has to be put to good use. If you don't use it, you lose it. So as we are moving out of being an agricultural community to a mixed a urban industrial agricultural, a both TID and MIDare interested on keeping their rights by making the water available to others that need it, selling it, you know. But that's beneficial use. That's good use. So Modesto Irrigation District 20 years ago offered to provide the city of Modesto with potable water. Great deal. Am I still using the water for good use? And they're making money in Department Turlock Irrigation District. It's a little slower, but right now they're building a potable water treatment plan where an outpost road crosses a water. Me on our side of the water. Me. There's a huge plant being built, and TID is now going to provide a drinking water to series and to Turlock and and to other in urban and industrial communities there, because that's a good use of the water and they keep to rates. So does that mean that water in Ceres will start to taste better? Yes. Yes. Because the water that we're collecting in Lake Don Pedro is some of the best in the world. One of the reasons why the water in in Turlock is is tasty or in Oakdale is because that's water that was brought from the mountains in the shortest possible route, was then applied to to the ground, to our orchards. And now we're extracting it for drinking. So it's very good, very good quality water series. For some reason, us in the middle is far from both rivers. And what can I say? I don't want I don't want the people from serious to feel sad about this. But but it is true that they don't have a very good reputation for having tasty water. I'm curious how other areas of California compare contrast with their water rights in regards to how it influences water allocation. And I know there's a lot of, you know, competing demands for water from various sources. So the water rights apply to surface water, and that's how my dad got the rights to the water up of the Tuolumne watershed. San Francisco came later and San Francisco basically pushed himself a horrible legal battle between Hemet and San Francisco. They didn't want them there, but San Francisco got help from the federal government by allowing them to claim water from Yosemite. And Yosemite is a federal park so much reluctantly, MID and TID had to accept the fact that San Francisco was going to get its water. In later years, you have heard that, oh, is San Francisco going to lose Hetch Hetchy? No, it will never happen. The federal government will never starve a city of its of its water supplies. Now, groundwater is slightly different. Groundwater. The the rule the rule in the 1800s was your land, your water. If you own the land, you can extract as much water as you want and put it to good use. You cannot just extract it in and toss it right. So and if you don't have senior rights to water, you can always use groundwater. Groundwater is the ace in the hole being in the sleeve because it's everywhere. This is changing a little bit because now we're all the counties are beginning to to be concerned and most of them have enacted some. And the water that you pull out of the ground has to be used in your property. We didn't want L.A. to come and by, you know, a few hundred acres of land and then extract the water and send it to L.A. that basically it. But you have places like, for example, all that agricultural area near Patterson and between Patterson and what would be immigration. That area doesn't have surface water. So they have been relying on the groundwater and there's only so much agriculture you can have. So they created a water district, the Del Puerto Canyon Water District in the. And they buy their water from the California Aqueduct or from the Delta Mendota Canal. And that's their only source of water. They have no seniority whatsoever. They are kind of the last comer. And the aqueduct can say, No, sorry, I'm not delivering you water because I'm going to send it south to more senior clients or urban clients. Urban always beats agriculture. So, Del, Puerto Canyon now is is having problems because in the drought, they didn't receive the allocation that they were normally expecting to receive from the aqueduct. They had to go back to the groundwater and that increases costs. And and basically they had to reduce the acreage of of land. So now they are they have applied for water from Del Puerto Canyon, which is a very small creek. But but they're planning on building a reservoir, a small reservoir. So once they get that allocation, which they probably will because nobody else is using it, they will be able to store their water during the wet years in their own reservoir and use that water for their dry years. So even late comers in have still an opportunity of accessing water. I'm wondering because there's been talk for a very long time about the drought in California, its relation to climate change, a lot of future projections that maybe aren't the most optimistic. A lot of people are afraid of things getting worse. How would that potentially affect the already complex issue of water rights and water allocation here in the state? Well, if you're a senior, if you have senior water rights, what it says is you take your water first and everybody else has to share the the scarcity. So here we are, smug because we're going to take our water first shower. King County may may have to take whatever we will leave behind. The truth is, if we really get into a very deep case of drought, then we're probably going to start seeing purchase of water. We're going to have, say, the city of Manteca. If they run out of water, they have money, they're going to purchase water from Turlock Irrigation District or from Modesto Irrigation District, who then can put their own water to good use by selling it. And at the same time help an urban community. For those of you that are into economics, for example, the economics of water is a it's difficult, it's complex, but it's a very satisfying professional use of your time. And because everybody needs water and the price is going to change depending on the and the scarcity with respect to climate change. I told you we have about 100 years of climate records and precipitation records, and it's a jagged line, and I see no trend whatsoever going up or going down. And you can make the case for, oh, well, if the temperature increases, we're going to have more rain because there's more evaporation, but we're going to have less snow. So if you don't catch it while it is running through the rivers, it's not going to be stored in there. And some people say, no, it's going to rain less. It turns out that climate changes. There's no question about that. Geologists have known this for a long time. Over the last 18,000 years, we have seen some dramatic climate changes about 18,000 years ago was the end of the last glaciation. And from 18,000, from 15000 to 11500, we had what is called the fluvial period. It rained in California like there was no tomorrow. It poured. There were lakes everywhere. Every single depression had a lake in Nevada. There were lakes all over the place. And in Death Valley there were big lakes, Great time for the Native Americans. They thrived and game was abundant. It was the most wonderful time in the world. Then we entered the dry period in which we are living right now. The interglacial age. If things dried out, all those wonderful lakes disappeared. We had some epic droughts and we don't remember them because the Native American records are not fixed. So there are probably still legends about those times, but it's hard to believe legends. However, we know that there were epic droughts because we have the the geologic records of them. For example, in Mono Lake, there is a delta that is exposed because Mono Lake was much higher in the in the past, and then it almost became empty. And now it's kind of a little a little higher. But there is evidence that it dried out completely and every one of you can see that. I invite you to go to Yosemite and look at Tenaya Lake. It's a beautiful lake. You can have lunch in there and look into the lake and you're going to see a tree sticking out in the middle of the lake. Of course, at that tree. But it's a big tree. It's a tree that must be three or four feet in diameter. You know that the trees are low growing lakes. So that means that when that tree grew, the lake was dry and this tree grew probably over a period of 100 years to become such a big a big tree. Archeologists have gone and drilled through that tree and they had analyzed the sample for radiocarbon and that tree apparently grew between 950 and 900 years ago. So we had a drought of 50 years, a big drought, and then we had another one of 150 years in 1400 to 1300 or something like that. So drought is nothing new in California. Mega droughts are nothing new in California. We are blessed that in the 100 years of history we have here 100 plus, and we have had droughts of four years, five years, and we're dying. Let us get a ten year drought and we're going to have to start pulling out orchards and and maybe we will to move to other parts of the of the state so that the population is lower. We're going to have to be very careful with our groundwater resources at that point. And that would involve things like maybe getting rid of lawns, replacing them with the rock ones a la Arizona. What other ways could we preserve and recycle water so that we're not wasting it? Well, what you said makes perfect sense. In fact, we should start doing it now. We should replace all the front lawns, lawns with native Californian vegetation, with pretty rock designs, and keep the green lawn in the backyard so the kids have a place to to play. Absolutely. I also support keeping public parks green because they're the great equalizer. You know, even if you live in an apartment, you can always walk to the local park and and have a great game of soccer. So I am not advocating getting completely rid of green areas, but all those front strips, Oh, we don't need them. We really don't need them. We also need to think on making agriculture efficient. Now, agriculture is a main user of water, so anything we can do to make it more efficient is great. We have seen a lot of sprinkler and replacing on flood irrigation by sprinklers. I don't know if that is such a great thing for two reasons. Flood irrigation ended recharging the groundwater table or the water table, and so it was a good way of moving salts from the upper portion of the soil profile and at the same time bringing water into into storage. Now, with the sprinklers were just wetting the top and so the salts don't have a chance to flush away. And slowly we could be increasing the salinity of the of the soils and we're not recharging the water table. However, in Mexico, for example, in the arid parts of Mexico, they are trying drilling. In short access pipes and maybe 3 to 5 feet deep and putting the water there. In that way they bypass the evaporate. They are giving the the water to the roots just where it is needed. And they can they can do it a lot more efficiently. It has to it has a cost. Of course, you know, you're going to be putting this five foot pipes at the root of every tree that's going to cost you a pretty penny. On the other hand, it's an business opportunity for someone. Is it going to be good for ten years? Probably not. Roots have the tendency to find more water, so maybe in two or three years the roots will clogged that pipe. You're going to have to move your pipe. Okay, so that's added costs. But that's very good way of delivering the water to the plants where they needed in the amounts they needed. Recycling. You also mentioned recycling. I think it's important. Now, we don't want to recycle wastewater like the water from the toilet has a bad rap, is pee pee water and people don't want people water as much as we clean it. They say, Now ask people who are. So we may not want to drink it, but you know what? That water is great for? For landscaping. All those parks could be irrigated with treated waste water. No problem. We could also use it for things like, oh, like sprinklers in the lawn, maybe for for the washer and for the washing machine, for showers, even because the water is treated to a high level of purity. I don't I don't think we should drink it. I agree with you. Is pee pee water. But for everything else that we use water for for air conditioning purposes, for for space heating purposes, it's perfectly good water. Industrial power generation, perfectly good water repellent is a leading a leader in the reuse of water and very good city engineer 20 years ago convinced the city to install purple pipe. A perfect pipe system. So now they have to test. So by the white pipe which conducts potable water and a purple pipe which conducts recycled water and there's purple pipe all over the city so people can connect to the purple pipe for the purposes that I mentioned. We have a little bit of a problem with with do it yourselfers because, oh, I went to two platinum pages and the closest pipe is a pipe. I will punch a hole. No, no, no, no, no. Let's not do it for, for vegetable growing for that one. Let's use white pipe. But, but the concept is brilliant. And I think we're going to more and more, we're going to use it. We also can can use massive amounts of recycled water to recharge aquifers because the soil profile is like a giant filter. Anything that the one molecule of PPE that was in the water would never survive a transfer through the through the VEDO summer. During our pre-production meeting, though, you mentioned how you are hoping that this crazy weather leads to another glaciation. Can you maybe expand on that? What you mean by that and what the results of that could potentially be? Sure. So in the Middle Ages, there was a period of very good weather from about 900 to about 1300 and A.D. The weather in in Europe, in the northern Hemisphere was beautiful, perfect. Every year the rains came like clockwork and wine harvest was great. The wine cellars were full. The beer production was awesome and it was great. In it was so good that society kind of stalled because you didn't have to fight for it, you know, There was no reason for innovating. And then the weather. Somewhere around 1350, the weather went crazy. There was the rain, which had been so steady, started. And sometimes there was a lot. Sometimes there was nothing. Sometimes there was this hot, dry weather that would kill the the crops. And people suffered a lot during those years. Curiously, the Renaissance happens during those years. So crazy completely crazy weather. And then at about 1400, we had the start of what we call the little ice Age, the weather in the northern Hemisphere just went south. It was cold and the rivers got choked with with ice floes. You remember Washington crossing the Delaware, They're rowing in between ice floes. Nobody has seen ice floes in the Delaware River for 100 years. That was a particularly cold time. And it went from about 1452 oh 1800s, maybe 1850, the dinner party and things like that. They I think they got the tail end of it. So I as a geologist would love to see the next glaciation and the next radiations is going to start with a lot of precipitation in the northern hemisphere and there's going to be a lot of rain and then the rains then turning to snow and it's going to start to accumulate and the snow is going to back to form ice. And in the ice sheets will start moving from Canada into the north and United States, just like they did 20,000 years ago or 50 to 20000 years ago. Wouldn't it be cool to see something like that? Maybe what we are concerned about global warming is just a indications that Mother Nature has said, Hey, I'm getting ready for a really surprising change and you guys don't have any idea what is coming my way, your way? What are the odds of that happening, though? I mean, are you able to predict something like that, that we're change like that happen instantly? Or would it gradually happen where we could observe it and care for it? Well, again, let me go back to what we know of that change that's happening in the in the Middle Ages or the change that's happening at the end of the last glaciation 18,000 years ago or at the end of the fluvial period. In all those cases, the change was fast. Like within 30 years we went from glaciation to fluvial and within 30 years we went from fluvial to dry. That's really fast. I mean, for us school 30 years, we tend to forget what happened 30 years ago. We can remember 30 years. What could be causing that? I don't know that I can predict it, but I can give you a possible explanation for this. What controls climate is the oceans. The oceans are the largest reservoir of heat. And not only do they store heat, but they can release it through evaporation and they can move it around and they are moving all the time. So I think what happened to start an ice age is that the Gulf Stream, which goes from the Gulf of Mexico along the east coast of the United States and then crosses the Atlantic and splits part of it goes towards England, part of it turns around toward Africa, the Gulf Stream becomes stronger and delivers more warm water to the higher latitudes to England. Then the fog gets particularly bad in England, but that's there's more evaporation. So there is rain. All those umbrellas that you see of the Victorians carrying around, that's because there was a lot of rain on the other side of the Atlantic. A lot of rain is Canada, it's cold and that's a lot of snow. And as you get more and more and more snow, you get the growth of glacial ice. Eventually, though, icebergs start happening, the Titanic, right? And so the Gulf Stream cannot go that far north and it turns short and then it starts from moisture. The northern hemisphere and the glaciation retreats. So I think this advance of ice and retreat of ice, advance of ice and retreat device is just showing you the way in which the Gulf Stream circulate through the North Atlantic. So I would keep an eye on the North and the Gulf Stream. If the Gulf Stream is becoming particularly strong, if you're beginning to see a lot of fog, a lot of rain in England, watch out, because that may be the start. And then over a period of 30 years, the process would get settled. And then over the next hundred years, they're going to be the growth of glacial ice. PERIES It's Canada, and they're going to have to move and maybe will will have more of the migration towards the southern United States, people that are in the north. And we are such an adaptable species that we will adapt. And if it goes the other way, if it gets very hot, well, we'll take up the air conditioning a little bit more and we will adapt to those conditions. Well, I got to tell you, if I was a geology student and I listened to this podcast, I'd be checking out the class schedule to enroll in one year courses that you teach here at Stan State. We're nearing the end of the podcast. Any final thoughts? Anything that we didn't touch on that you think is important? I would like to to remind everybody that water is a complex, a good an economic good, a social good. So on one hand, we need hydrologists who understand the science of water, but we're in this conversation all together. So the farmers say through through the board of directors of TDI have a say on how we're going to use water. The rural communities have a say in what we're going to use water. There's room for the economists and the sociologists and the artist mathematicians and you just have to remember that we need to work on this together because water excuse me, maybe you need to cut this out, but water is like sex. Everybody thinks I am an expert and nobody's a complete expert. Everybody holds a piece of the puzzle. But in order to manage it properly, we need to put the pieces together. So rather than say, Hey, I know it all I don't need to hear you is like, No, no, I want to hear from you. What are your concerns about the use of this common good? And maybe we can design a solution that is a win win for everybody. I think you mentioned my courses. I think everybody in this university should take my class on development and management of water Resources is one of my most popular classes. It's only offered once a year. Unfortunately, my physical oceanography class is also very good in understanding the ways in which water moves around and in the world. I have a class on environmental geology where I stress a lot of these environmental issues. And then, of course, for those who really want to get into the nitty gritty, I have specialty classes like hydro geology, and the geography department has a good class in an. Water and power. And they don't mean electric power, they mean political power. So that's a good class. And they also have a class in climatology, which is a good class. I am not sure what poli sci or sociology or economics have, but if you're if you're in those fields, look around because water law is extremely complicated. Water economics is extremely complicated and is a great source of employment. And a social right to water to good water is another incredibly interesting and and fulfilling area of professional work. Plenty of opportunities here at Eastern State, too, to become involved in water. And if you want to contact me to begin with, I will be glad to to point you in some fruitful directions. And real quick, before we end. What opportunities are afforded to students who decide they want to follow the geology or hydrology path? Well, of course, everybody dreams from working for TID - till I die- because they are such a good company, but they are limited in size. Then they can only grow so much and people are not retiring because they are super happy there. However, Tshidi does a lot of work through engineering companies and there's plenty of engineering companies in the state of California, many in Sacramento, many in San Francisco, many in the L.A. area, but enough along the valley that I would I encourage my my students say, yes, apply to Ted if you see something good in there, but apply to the engineering companies, they are the ones that are doing the actual work. The same I could say the same thing for economics or policy or things like that. Everybody wants to work for Ted, but look at other support organizations. Ultimately, the work has to be done and if we don't have enough highly qualified people coming from our university to take those positions, well, somebody else is going to take it and occupy that position. We don't want that. We want to take them for us because they are well-paid. They are fulfilling and worth preparing for them. And I'm not going to say it's easy, but but if you're well prepared, I assure you you're going to find a fulfilling job. For anyone listening who's interested in geology and are discussing today, student or otherwise, there will be links to the geology department in the podcast description below, and there will also be a link to Dr. Ferriz’ biography. There's a lot in there that I didn't mention in this podcast. He is very well accomplished in this field and I thank you for joining us today on the Stan State EduCast. My pleasure. And remember, you can always drop me an email hferriz@csustan.edu. I have a no inbox a policy, so I will respond within within minutes in most cases to your inquiry. What an episode. Once again, special thanks to Dr. Horacio Ferriz for a great discussion on water in California. If you like this episode and you want to listen to past episodes of the Stan State EduCast, you can find us online at csustan.edu/podcast. You can also find us on your favorite podcasting platforms. So please subscribe and follow your notified of new episodes. Until our next discussion, I’m Frankie Tovar. Have a good day.